My feeling ... (experience with real shifter karts)

[Napalm Candy]

Hi, I have a shifter kart with a TM K9c engine (125cc). I'm not in any championship, but I go to circuit every 2 weeks and race for at least 1h, the last 3 years.

I feel great this sim, for sure the better one (on karting), but at the same time I see a lot things to improve in feeling.

- I don't see a wheely on front tire when I turn at maxium. -> see my video on slow motion
- I feel like the chassis is too much rigid -> see my video on Slow motion
- I feel the moment of grip loss and grip recovery are unnatural. When I'm in my kart I'm rectifiying all the time the direction, also I don't turn the wheel more than a few dregrees and I can to do a curve with a touch of steering wheel and then do the curve with the steering wheel on the middle. -> See my onboard video

- The engine, I never see an engine (KZ category) at more than 15.000 RPM. I know that in a national championship a good rate is about 14600RPM with an agresive carburation, but with a normal carburation I change at 13900 RPM, so 16700 RPM it is too much.  Also this engine has very low power at low RPM and very high power at high RPM, so the feeling (in a real kart) it is like a turbo when you pass the 12.000RPM. * See the graph at the end of this post.

- The sound of the engine... I never felt in my kart that the sound is only on the rigth side, so inside of the helmet you only hear noise. Also will be good to improve the sound of engine

- The sound of tires, I never hear the tires when I race on my kart, but you can hear sometimes (when the track has low grip) from the boxes, but never on the kart.

- Slide/drift, to me it is a lot easy to drift my kart than a do a simple slide on your sim.

- The track surface is too much 'perfect', too much smooth, I think adding irregularities to the surface track will improve the tires feeling.

- The gear change it is too slow compared to a real kart, also in a real kart you can't change if you don't leave off the throttle. And if you brake to 0 with a gear, you will stop the engine.

- The tires need deformation modeling for better feeling -> see the slow motion video between 0:55 - 1:10, the rear tire

Slow motion video -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWllLSBMQgI
On board video -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk6crsWS874

This is a graphic comparision between the TM K9c and the new TM KZ10 engine. Both 125cc. (The KZ10 engine works at higher RPM)




I will add more suggeriments, ideas, feelings when I remember all that I wanted to say....

[Snappe]

Really nice slow mo video :-)
Regarding the steering wheel range of motion, what steering ratio are you running in KRP? Changing from 5:1 to 3:1 makes a big difference.

[Napalm Candy]

4:1 it is the most realistic for me

[Aritz]

I have to agree in all

I feel that caster adjustement is too exaggerated, in a real kart this adjustment isn't so evident. You feel some change but no this way

Anyway, this is far away the best kart sim

[Eslotes]

macho tampoco hagas eso jajaja que piñazo neng

[Shawn Campbell]

Hi, I have a shifter kart with a TM K9c engine (125cc). I'm not in any championship, but I go to circuit every 2 weeks and race for at least 1h, the last 3 years.

I feel great this sim, for sure the better one (on karting), but at the same time I see a lot things to improve in feeling.

- I don't see a wheely on front tire when I turn at maxium. -> see my video on slow motion
- I feel like the chassis is too much rigid -> see my video on Slow motion
- I feel the moment of grip loss and grip recovery are unnatural. When I'm in my kart I'm rectifiying all the time the direction, also I don't turn the wheel more than a few dregrees and I can to do a curve with a touch of steering wheel and then do the curve with the steering wheel on the middle. -> See my onboard video

- The engine, I never see an engine (KZ category) at more than 15.000 RPM. I know that in a national championship a good rate is about 14600RPM with an agresive carburation, but with a normal carburation I change at 13900 RPM, so 16700 RPM it is too much.  Also this engine has very low power at low RPM and very high power at high RPM, so the feeling (in a real kart) it is like a turbo when you pass the 12.000RPM. * See the graph at the end of this post.

- The sound of the engine... I never felt in my kart that the sound is only on the rigth side, so inside of the helmet you only hear noise. Also will be good to improve the sound of engine

- The sound of tires, I never hear the tires when I race on my kart, but you can hear sometimes (when the track has low grip) from the boxes, but never on the kart.

- Slide/drift, to me it is a lot easy to drift my kart than a do a simple slide on your sim.

- The track surface is too much 'perfect', too much smooth, I think adding irregularities to the surface track will improve the tires feeling.

- The gear change it is too slow compared to a real kart, also in a real kart you can't change if you don't leave off the throttle. And if you brake to 0 with a gear, you will stop the engine.

- The tires need deformation modeling for better feeling -> see the slow motion video between 0:55 - 1:10, the rear tire

Slow motion video -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWllLSBMQgI
On board video -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk6crsWS874

This is a graphic comparision between the TM K9c and the new TM KZ10 engine. Both 125cc. (The KZ10 engine works at higher RPM)




I will add more suggeriments, ideas, feelings when I remember all that I wanted to say....

Yep, I think this all sounds about right.  And tell me how you managed to wreck that bad on a straight?

[nicholasxuu]

mostly agreed.

However, need to know that there's a difference between computer simulation and real world.
I'm not sure if they've done it, so it's just a clarification in case u've just taken it too seriously.

1. Visual not equal to truth in computer simulation.
There are many things that's simulated, but not shown.
both for less programming(they have not yet going to spend that much time on graphic programming),
and for less PC requirements(running smoothly is the main goal, and it's not a industrial game for making players upgrade their machines).
For example, in other simulation games, live for speed has simulated the tire wall movement and also made it graphical, so that u actually can see that in slow motion, but rFactor only simulated it, without putting the graphic stuff in.

2. Tire noise is VERY IMPORTANT in simulators,
without the g-force and feeling on your bottom, also with limited view though that piece of screen.
the best way to know your car sliding, and how much your car is sliding, is to hear it.
That could be less sensitive, but it's a must in simulations.

They really need to improve the force feedback.
and the tire model is really weird, sliding a bit more and most power are completely lost. that's like 5degrees of sliding tolerance.

[Aritz]

... the tire model is really weird, sliding a bit more and most power are completely lost. that's like 5degrees of sliding tolerance.

That's the point! In almost all the sims, the grip is lost too fast, it becomes 0 faster than reality. If you put the car sideways, you barely will be able to put it in the right way.

[T.J. Koyen]

That's the point! In almost all the sims, the grip is lost too fast, it becomes 0 faster than reality. If you put the car sideways, you barely will be able to put it in the right way.

It's because you can't get the same feeling as when you're driving in real life with a sim. You can't feel every little change in the steering input and the tires grip. I know in a kart when I feel a slide, the correction on the wheel is almost instant. In the sim, I have a hard time distinguishing when I'm sliding beyond the point I can save it. So in reality, the tire model is probably pretty accurate, but without the real-life feedback that you get when driving a kart for real, it becomes much harder to save a slide in the sim.

So I don't know if you're ever going to get the complete realistic feeling for sliding in the sim.

[nicholasxuu]

That's the point! In almost all the sims, the grip is lost too fast, it becomes 0 faster than reality. If you put the car sideways, you barely will be able to put it in the right way.

It's because you can't get the same feeling as when you're driving in real life with a sim. You can't feel every little change in the steering input and the tires grip. I know in a kart when I feel a slide, the correction on the wheel is almost instant. In the sim, I have a hard time distinguishing when I'm sliding beyond the point I can save it. So in reality, the tire model is probably pretty accurate, but without the real-life feedback that you get when driving a kart for real, it becomes much harder to save a slide in the sim.

So I don't know if you're ever going to get the complete realistic feeling for sliding in the sim.

Yes, the bottom sliding feeling? not if u can spend around $20K-40K for a hydro-moving special seat. (maybe less if u can DIY it, but still not going to be cheap).well since i've never experienced that, I am not sure if it actually feels right.
that's why force feedback(from the steering wheel) is coming more important here. You really need more feedback to react quick.
Also, there is a dim tire noise when u are at the limit,
and there is a loud squeeze noise (from tire) when you are over the limit.
as soon as you find the first noise and keep on it. It will be a decent laptime.

[shrapnel]

I tend to find it most difficult on corner entry.  Where in real life in my kart I will pivot the kart into a corner, using brakes to help turn, this seems to see a very quick spin out in the sim, where in real life i would have much more feel for the "knife edge" level of grip on entry.

On the whole I think the Force feedback is quite good for giving the feeling from the front tyres, which aids in feeling lateral grip, but the longitudinal weight transfer and balancing the throttle and brakes as you would is not so easy and needs more practice to find a feel that in real life would be very instinctive.

In real life my whole feeling for the amount of grip available to me in changing conditions is very instinctual and I don't find that so much in the sim, so it just takes me a little more time to adapt to the kart's behaviour.

This is, without doubt, the most accurate driving feel for karting I have ever experienced in a simulator though.

[falugetti]

Hi, I have a shifter kart with a TM K9c engine (125cc). I'm not in any championship, but I go to circuit every 2 weeks and race for at least 1h, the last 3 years.

I feel great this sim, for sure the better one (on karting), but at the same time I see a lot things to improve in feeling.

- I don't see a wheely on front tire when I turn at maxium. -> see my video on slow motion
- I feel like the chassis is too much rigid -> see my video on Slow motion
- I feel the moment of grip loss and grip recovery are unnatural. When I'm in my kart I'm rectifiying all the time the direction, also I don't turn the wheel more than a few dregrees and I can to do a curve with a touch of steering wheel and then do the curve with the steering wheel on the middle. -> See my onboard video

- The engine, I never see an engine (KZ category) at more than 15.000 RPM. I know that in a national championship a good rate is about 14600RPM with an agresive carburation, but with a normal carburation I change at 13900 RPM, so 16700 RPM it is too much.  Also this engine has very low power at low RPM and very high power at high RPM, so the feeling (in a real kart) it is like a turbo when you pass the 12.000RPM. * See the graph at the end of this post.

- The sound of the engine... I never felt in my kart that the sound is only on the rigth side, so inside of the helmet you only hear noise. Also will be good to improve the sound of engine

- The sound of tires, I never hear the tires when I race on my kart, but you can hear sometimes (when the track has low grip) from the boxes, but never on the kart.

- Slide/drift, to me it is a lot easy to drift my kart than a do a simple slide on your sim.

- The track surface is too much 'perfect', too much smooth, I think adding irregularities to the surface track will improve the tires feeling.

- The gear change it is too slow compared to a real kart, also in a real kart you can't change if you don't leave off the throttle. And if you brake to 0 with a gear, you will stop the engine.

- The tires need deformation modeling for better feeling -> see the slow motion video between 0:55 - 1:10, the rear tire

Slow motion video -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWllLSBMQgI
On board video -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk6crsWS874

This is a graphic comparision between the TM K9c and the new TM KZ10 engine. Both 125cc. (The KZ10 engine works at higher RPM)




I will add more suggeriments, ideas, feelings when I remember all that I wanted to say....

you say that you all time are rectyfing the direction because in your circuit that you test haven't got much grip but in lonato for example drivers somtimes are rectyfing the direction because there is a lot of grip

[Tac1]

Great sim, but I'm having trouble on the FFB side of things. For some reason the game doesn't seem to communicate much to me via FFB. The wheel feels a bit dead in a sense. I have FFB set to 90 in game/100 in my profile. However damper effects are set to 0, if I turn that on the wheel moves violently left and and right on its' own.

DFGT

[richardcollier]

What a detailed report. hehe... Mine with an electric is good. Still need to try a shifter. Maybe next week.


_______________
go kart phoenix

[ajonson]

havent read everything but, when u gear down u have to wait cuz the driver gear down 1 gear, take the wheel and geardown again, in real do they take all gears without any wheel toutch. Its also pretty annoying when u and gear down in the hairpin and can´t go to the right gear direct