Hello,
i dont drive in KRP for a long time because i have lost the fun with it. Why Piboso dont let improve the physics? in my opinion he schould test physics with some guys from this forum and do the physics so that all have fun and a realistic feeling.
I love KRP because it has the basics to be a great game, but now its for me more a fight then driving and its frustrating when you must fight every corner......i cant drive like i want because the grip Level isnt like real.
In real KZ1 i can drive agressive......i can brake late, shift down and use a agressive line to be fast (sharp into a corner and then sharp out of it) and in FA/ICA you always have to drift a little into the corner(not possible in KRP) to reduce the apex and drive rounder.
i could be soo easy to do this when the physics would be good, but how improve them when no one's involved in testing and so on??
Only my 2 cents, but i think that not only i think this way......for me its so a shame that there is such a good game and there is no room for improvement :'( The Grafics are soo good that you need a really good PC but realism schould'nt be on the second place......Great Graphics, not soo good physics, i dont think that this is what people want......
I am sad about this all....because in my opinion it goes the wrong way....I think much people would help to make this game better, because one person cant do this all professional :-X :-\ There are thousands of skins and things like this, but the physics are the same all the time and nothing happens :'(
That's ONLY MY OPINION, and i know that now i would be the BOO Man because i say what i feel, but i think that when more people would be involved in making this game then it would be better and a lot faster to make it good..
Greetings and sorry for bad english, GhostriderPL
Sorry if development is not as fast as you ( and everyone else probably ) would like.
However, this doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement.
The fact is that KRP is not only a kart simulator, but also a "racing" sim, so multiplayer needs a lot of improvements, too, to allow races and championships to be organized.
Online debugging and integration of other new features require a lot of time, unfortunately.
Nonetheless, it would for sure be a good idea to have a racing driver help tuning of physics data.
I think the professional drivers are the first thing to have for improvements. and i think too that this wouldnt be any problem.....ask for it and you will see that EVERYONE would help because everyone who play this sim wants to help.
so why this doesnt happen until today?? i know that you do great work!! But for one person it is impossible to stay focussed on everything, and everyone see this.....
Dont understand me wrong (but i think you know what i mean) ;)
I can write and write but this doesnt change anything, right? I only think that physics are more important than graphics..... ;)
And once more...believe me.....EVERYONE would help to improve the physics......and i understand that you want improve the online gaming and other things...And when people help in their way then YOU can work on other things without pressure because not everything is on your mind, right? :)
Greetings, GhostriderPL
Hello there,
I share the same opinion with this thread owner. I used to have LOTS OF FUN with KRP back in 2010 (see the bellow videos) because then i used to oversteer the way i wanted just like in a real kart. So i could brake late, gently keep the rear sliding the way i wanted so i could accelerate a bit to keep it just flowing out of the corner with maximum speed. Now i JUST CANT. See bellow how it used to look like driving the Kart very agressivelly, you can feel that once i press gas too much it will gently oversteer so you can either keep it or avoid it, but you won't JUST SPIN as it is right now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YRo13CAdU8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3az1qDh5_A
Right now all i gotta do is to brake and try to brake perfectly good, otherwise the kart will oversteer ALL AT ONCE which seems totally unreal. Then i can only drive in an understeer manner, but this is not what Karts are supposed to do. You have some kind of oversteer that you shall control in order to be fast, but right now in KRP you ONLY HAVE UNDERSTEER, because oversteer means off track.
I mean about the KF1 and about all the others. I don't know why, but there is a huge physics gap between the build from late 2010 (when i recorded above videos) to the nowadays, and nowadays the build is not looking good regarding physics of the kart.
Please Piboso let the kart be more smooth regarding oversteer (just make changes so the physics will look like it was in 2010, see my videos how the kart reacts to my agressive inputs) and not a totally katana that will hit and kill you only in 1 hit. I don't know exactly the number, but the build released about at that time in december 2010 was JUST GREAT in terms of physics from the kart itself, specially regarding oversteer.
Quote from: GhostriderPl on January 11, 2013, 04:58:34 PM
I can write and write but this doesnt change anything, right? I only think that physics are more important than graphics..... ;)
Graphics? There was no time to improve graphics so far :(
If you compare the latest beta with the first one, you'll see a lot of new features:
- a new gearbox code
- carburetor simulation ( albeit limited )
- radiator cover
- air choke simulation
- tucking
- possibility to start / stop the engine
- dynamic track surface and 3D marbles
- trainer
- possibility to choose between multiple helmets, bodyworks, dashes, intakes
and a long list of other improvements, fixes and new contents.
Unfortunately all this work prevented from spending enough time on physics tuning.
Also, the most common complains are about multiplayer, so of course kart physics has lower priority at the moment.
PiBoSo when is there coming a new BETA with BETTER PHYSICS,many people leave for that also me i dont have fun anymore in this game...
Sorry but this true for many drivers!
Well I for one am having a blast with this sim. I have wide experience of sims/racing games from 20 years time and compared to that KRP holds very well. Physics might not be perfect but definately driveble. This game doesn't have AI feature so getting multiplayer to work is definately highest priority to keep this sim going.
Knowing that this is one mans show, I must say, excellent job so far piboso. One of the best spent euros in year 2012 for me. And I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone with my thoughts.
i think also we have to take into the account that piboso has 2 other sims to look after to, just recently wrs was updated and as he is a "one man band" it must of been quite difficult to look at all 3 sims and get them all right. we just have to hang on in there as we know piboso can do anything ;) just give him chance and he will get it right. Piboso also has to make it versatile to people who dont drive karts in real, an in between has to be there.
just be patient and things will get better, we are not going fast anywhere
Did you drive a kart once in real Life Pentti?
because i hear that this sim wants to be a training tool as well. ;)
And Piboso......i DONT want that you think that you dont do a good job because in my opinion you do a GREAT JOB!!! :)
But when tucking and choke are more important then the driving physics then somethings wrong.....this are ADDONS for me which can be made when a game is "real" in all other things which are important for driving :P
and once more......for realistic driving you need drivers that can say : This or this should be so and so.....
alone you cant do this all.....you need people to help then it can go further in realism....but so more and more people leave this game (like its happening already) and this is sad for me because the Basics are very good, but the main things are the same and nothing happens.......what give us choke when the rest isnt real? think about it ok?
Once more....i think that there is many potencial but the potencial is left behind for skins and other things that are not important at this time ;)
Greetings, GhostriderPL
Quote from: Intrepid junior max on January 12, 2013, 03:10:28 PM
i think also we have to take into the account that piboso has 2 other sims to look after to, just recently wrs was updated and as he is a "one man band" it must of been quite difficult to look at all 3 sims and get them all right. we just have to hang on in there as we know piboso can do anything ;) just give him chance and he will get it right. Piboso also has to make it versatile to people who dont drive karts in real, an in between has to be there.
just be patient and things will get better, we are not going fast anywhere
In this case its even more important to have some people to help.........for what hanging on doing this all by himself??????? Help wouldnt be a problem......one person, 3 games.....for what? for beeing a star? that isnt realistic.......do it all by yourself (and the games are not existing in a year) or let help (and have great games for years)
This is only MY opinion ;)
Greetings, GhostriderPL
Quote from: GhostriderPl on January 12, 2013, 03:24:20 PM
Did you drive a kart once in real Life Pentti?
Couple of times year back. Like I said I compared this sim to all other sims I've ever driven before and in that case this is very quality product.
Quotebecause i hear that this sim wants to be a training tool as well. ;)
No one said this sim is already finished. And if you don't have working multiplayer there's not much to practice racing as well. ;)
Sim: i drive in Maaaaany Leagues in my life (the first was GP4, and then there wasnt even online Races) ;)
Real: I drive since 1985 in Karting Races until today (Bambini, ICA-J, ICA, FA, FSA, ICC, FormulaC, Super ICC and today KZ1)
and i think that i dont shame anybody when saying my opinion....and i dont say you MUST do what i say ;) :)
I only think that even for Karters this sim goes in the wrong way...a non Karter would learn to drive very fast. But when even I must fight every corner because the grip Level is so hard then somethings not like it should be...
i have the game since it started and i thought that it would be a great sim, but for this Piboso MUST have some people to help.......Like in other Sims......i remember when i was driving GTR and simbin let us drive and wanted to have requests from us to improve the physics.....and in other games we became a physics tool and play around with it until the driving physics were good and real for all...there were people like TALOC (you know him when you drive sims in the old days) and people like him were known everywhere and tested all the new stuff...
And here you have people like Schwoni for example and these people schould test lots of physics and say which way the physics should be....
Is this a problem? i dont see why...i see that this would help to make the game so good that everyone would have fun with it because only when the physics are near to the real then you can see driving styles.....now it is so that you can drive and drive and everytime you have the same fight because you cant drive like your style is....when you can change your style to the game then you are fast....and in my opinion it should be the other way round......driving on YOUR Limit and driving to the limit of the sim like you dont want are two different things ;)
and once more......there are thousands of skins and other things but for what when the physics let the people lost the fun with driving? :'(
Sorry for bad english but i hope you guys know what i mean ;) :)
Greetings, GhostriderPL
ghostrider said a good point:
for me its the same. im a very fast guy here in germany won many championships and races but im slow in krp for example at my home track liedsolheim that schwoni made.
i cant get my drivingstyle here in the game for ex like i drive:
brake late but no sliding but no understeering i hate understeering i make my kart like senna his car. ocersteering because i know how to control. but i cant get this in the game and it starts with setup. in real i make my setup in a complete different way!
but anyway i love this game! it would be. cool if the modders in the forum like evo,schwoni(i think doesnt play anymore),me,crisb etc would test and change physiks with piboso.
Quote from: LauZzZn on January 12, 2013, 06:47:30 PM
ghostrider said a good point:
for me its the same. im a very fast guy here in germany won many championships and races but im slow in krp for example at my home track liedsolheim that schwoni made.
i cant get my drivingstyle here in the game for ex like i drive:
brake late but no sliding but no understeering i hate understeering i make my kart like senna his car. ocersteering because i know how to control. but i cant get this in the game and it starts with setup. in real i make my setup in a complete different way!
but anyway i love this game! it would be. cool if the modders in the forum like evo,schwoni(i think doesnt play anymore),me,crisb etc would test and change physiks with piboso.
why only modders?, would be better to test with a wide range of people, makes no difference if you are a modder
Quote from: GhostriderPl on January 12, 2013, 03:24:20 PM
Once more....i think that there is many potencial but the potencial is left behind for skins and other things that are not important at this time ;)
Development is driven mostly by suggestions: when 60% of the requests are to fix multiplayer, 30% to add new features and only 10% to improve the physics, then priorities are set.
Not people make the decision what is important, but the game style (for arcade for example this would work) for who you want to make the multiplayer when people leave the game, because of the physics?????
When you want to make a SIM then physics are the first priority! and when this works than people can make the rest. ;)
Dont you see that people leaving the community?? i love your work Piboso, and i think you do this for us all.....but you should think about it, because more and more people leaving because of this problems.... :'(
when the first Beta came out i was proud and i wanted to do stickers on my Kart to show to others that this game exists (and i drive around the world), but from Beta 1 to now nothing happened to the physics, and the problems were the same....why no one can help you to improve it? where is the problem? because i dont understand it :( :'(
Greetings, GhostriderPL
Quote from: GhostriderPl on January 12, 2013, 10:12:58 PM
why no one can help you to improve it? where is the problem? because i dont understand it :( :'(
No problem. Beta8 should be released soon and it will feature a lot of changes, fixes and improvements, including the simulation part.
After that, all features should be final and, if someone will be interested, one or more drivers will be asked to help with the tuning of physics data for version 1.0
Ok Piboso....
And remember....i dont want you to think that we are not thankful.... ;) but in my opinion we MUST say what we think, otherwise the progress would stop......know what i mean right? :D
So we wait and dont stress you :P ;) But when you want and need help then you will become it in every second, remember this all time :) :-*
Greetings, GhostriderPL
I wouldn't be so worried about people leaving. It's always like that with games in open beta stage. People always come back when new build is released. Maybe not all, but many of them I'm sure. This is already a quality product that needs some tweaks and polishing, and maybe some new features, but good enough to bring people back to check new releases.
I see nothing but bright future for this great sim, agree me or not I don't really care.
Quote from: Pentti Hilkuri on January 13, 2013, 08:24:56 AM
I wouldn't be so worried about people leaving. It's always like that with games in open beta stage. People always come back when new build is released. Maybe not all, but many of them I'm sure. This is already a quality product that needs some tweaks and polishing, and maybe some new features, but good enough to bring people back to check new releases.
I see nothing but bright future for this great sim, agree me or not I don't really care.
+1
People will come back and new gamers will come too.
one more time i think the same as ghostrider.
you always say this is a sim, so the physics are highest priority!
i really like your work and your modding compatibility and this forum which is based on your work,too. but i want to use this sim to train for some races. but thats not possible at the moment because of the wrong physics. i can really understand that kart physics are hard to make but this needs highest priority for me.
thank you piboso!
Hello Piboso,
I' joined KRP just some weeks ago so i don't know the other builds; I've indeed seen some strange behaviors compared to real life and my initial feelings with the base setups were that understeer (especially on long bends) was too much (you really had to fight a lot). With set up changes it is much better now.
I'm not enough qualified to say where you have it right where you have it wrong however coming from other simulators fraternity (mainly military air planes simulators) and having been involved in alpha & beta testing with some teams i feel i have one good suggestion for you.
do NOT rely on observations to TWEAK your physics engine!! This is the best way to f^*ù up your simulator!! Why?
1/ People will tell you "this kart should oversteer there!" but why their kart oversteer there?? there could be a lot of reasons!
2/ People will sometime feel something that in reality has contrary manifestations for example "i oversteer there!" but in reality you can a fraction of second understeer; Sometime the driver has it completely wrong.
3/ People will invevitably say you that "a kart should do this in those conditions" and there they start to make a law of their own experience whithout knowing what going on.
4/You'll run the risk of tweaking some parameters that will have influence on the others and that will spoil the other points.
All of those points are called "the Hollywood effect" in military flight simulators I.E: people have a wrong idea of how a plane should behave in this or this situation.
My suggestion is that you should improve you mathematical model or tweak it in the basic parameters. If your physic model is good from a mathematical and source data point of view then when someone says that your physics are wrong, you can discuss with the person to see if he has a sound scientific approach or not and you can better see what it going on.
My post isn't there to say that the complains are not valid, and i'm sure you already know all of this but following the posts i'm under the impression that many people want some "sensations" back and when you're under pressure to change your physics you run at risk to make fast tweaks that will please people because their driving technic will work but where everything is messed up in other department. Then another will say "i drive like that in real life! I'm a champion and it doesn't work in KRP!!!"..
Bai bai
Quote from: Uncia Ogami on January 15, 2013, 06:20:08 PM
Hello Piboso,
I' joined KRP just some weeks ago so i don't know the other builds; I've indeed seen some strange behaviors compared to real life and my initial feelings with the base setups were that understeer (especially on long bends) was too much (you really had to fight a lot). With set up changes it is much better now.
I'm not enough qualified to say where you have it right where you have it wrong however coming from other simulators fraternity (mainly military air planes simulators) and having been involved in alpha & beta testing with some teams i feel i have one good suggestion for you.
do NOT rely on observations to TWEAK your physics engine!! This is the best way to f^*ù up your simulator!! Why?
1/ People will tell you "this kart should oversteer there!" but why their kart oversteer there?? there could be a lot of reasons!
2/ People will sometime feel something that in reality has contrary manifestations for example "i oversteer there!" but in reality you can a fraction of second understeer; Sometime the driver has it completely wrong.
3/ People will invevitably say you that "a kart should do this in those conditions" and there they start to make a law of their own experience whithout knowing what going on.
4/You'll run the risk of tweaking some parameters that will have influence on the others and that will spoil the other points.
All of those points are called "the Hollywood effect" in military flight simulators I.E: people have a wrong idea of how a plane should behave in this or this situation.
My suggestion is that you should improve you mathematical model or tweak it in the basic parameters. If your physic model is good from a mathematical and source data point of view then when someone says that your physics are wrong, you can discuss with the person to see if he has a sound scientific approach or not and you can better see what it going on.
My post isn't there to say that the complains are not valid, and i'm sure you already know all of this but following the posts i'm under the impression that many people want some "sensations" back and when you're under pressure to change your physics you run at risk to make fast tweaks that will please people because their driving technic will work but where everything is messed up in other department. Then another will say "i drive like that in real life! I'm a champion and it doesn't work in KRP!!!"..
Bai bai
Thank you for your message. This is indeed a big risk and unfortunately it probably already happened between Beta6 and 7.
It would be useful to know what setup changes you made.
Hi,
I understand your problem, the simulator i've been the most involved in is Rise of Flight (a WWI flight simulator). The lead physics engineer like often now in military simulators is a real flight dynamics engineer so he know what he's doing. And it still takes all of his scientific rigor to not break under public pressure to do this and that. After 3 years of existence this has proved successful but he has to constantly work that way:
He works on pre-rendered mathematical model to get precise data, then he feeds them into his more simplified real time model; When he can (with CPU power usage limits) he develops more complicated real time physical model. This is a constant evolution process.
As for set up, the main problem was highlighted in high speed corners like the last one before straight at Essay or at Escourse. Initially i had understeer at turn in, i modified the front to have more weight jacking but i also steer initially abruptly for very few degrees (that i do it in real life too) before being smooth on the steering wheel to be sure you have enough load transfert. After that the problem was an understeer on steady state that i resorbed by having a flex at the front but not a the rear. My reasoning is that you need flexing chassis to keep to real wheel lifted but either if the rear is flexible too the rear wheel may lift too much (and then you have understeer again) or..by making the rear flexing you may have losses by friction of the reactive force that makes the rear wheel lifted.
Here you have a very good example of a driver observation that is without sound scientific ground...I can't simply be sure of why this set up works....and from what i've read on the internet, in real life, nobody seems to understand that body flexing neither!!!
That's why a sound physic model (forced based, with viscosity and non solid body equations) would be itself provide the correct effects. The more you simulate and the base level the more you'll likely to get it right (but the more source data you need...)
Quote from: Uncia Ogami on January 15, 2013, 06:54:00 PM
Hi,
I understand your problem, the simulator i've been the most involved in is Rise of Flight (a WWI flight simulator). The lead physics engineer like often now in military simulators is a real flight dynamics engineer so he know what he's doing. And it still takes all of his scientific rigor to not break under public pressure to do this and that. After 3 years of existence this has proved successful but he has to constantly work that way:
He works on pre-rendered mathematical model to get precise data, then he feeds them into his more simplified real time model; When he can (with CPU power usage limits) he develops more complicated real time physical model. This is a constant evolution process.
Probably flight simulator can rely on a massive literature and experimental data.
The problem with driving simulator is that a good 50% of the needed data is unknown, even to the karting industry, that mostly works with trial and error ( try asking a kart tyres manufacturer for data :-\ ).
So most parameters must be "guessed", and drivers feedback can be extremely useful. They should have a basic knowledge of vehicle dynamics, though.
Well for example in WWI simulations clearly no, you don't have that much of experimental data since most of the data used nowadays was not used then. That's why the pre-render phase is very important. You need to get those data by calculations.
But i feel for you, it seems kart is a very secretive world!! Anyway to me while i'm looking for improvement in KRP i try to take the challenge as it is now until those changes happen and i'm having fun with it. I just try to see what works and what doesn't.
Keep up the good work!
I think KRP tends to understeer in fast corners mostly even with big setup changes. In my experience, karts don't understeer a bit in such corners ever. I drove 8-10 different karts in my life and all of them have the same behaviour. Differences are in slow corners, some are very understeered always and some not. Maybe this already posted video helps. It's me in real and virtual track. Look at my wheel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRr-bN0ztPk
Quote from: Aritz on January 16, 2013, 08:53:08 PM
I think KRP tends to understeer in fast corners mostly even with big setup changes. In my experience, karts don't understeer a bit in such corners ever. I drove 8-10 different karts in my life and all of them have the same behaviour. Differences are in slow corners, some are very understeered always and some not. Maybe this already posted video helps. It's me in real and virtual track. Look at my wheel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRr-bN0ztPk
I agree the understeer is a problem. I am new to karting but I know in my kart if I go to fast into a corner understeering and going wide is usually not the problem. You can start turning in and seem like you are going to be okay then all of a sudden the rear will let loose and you spin. It is impossible to get the kart in KRP to spin without use of the throttle or brakes.
Quote from: Uncia Ogami on January 15, 2013, 09:46:20 PM
Well for example in WWI simulations clearly no, you don't have that much of experimental data since most of the data used nowadays was not used then. That's why the pre-render phase is very important. You need to get those data by calculations.
But in aviation, it's still possible to build an accurate 3D model and use a CFD software to get reasonably accurate data. This is not possible with a kart chassis or with tyres :(
Actually this is the same problem in aviation really. Especially in military simulators. You can't get even the dimensions of a landing gear; Several plane manufacturers forced some amateurs to remove their planes from their simulators (sic!) and i can directly relate one case of a student that tried to do a school work on estimation of performance of one fighter plane's radar...he got the unpleasant visit of french rens services!
If you dare to ask for a CFD model of fighter jet my friend you're in deep trouble!
This is worsened by the fact modern fight simulators simulate in real time most of the systems contained in the planes (from tire's braking elastic limits to dials in the cockpit) thus the need for information is huge.
The only possibility is thus: either concentrate on older planes (but not too old) like WWII (many private collections fly them) or have a partnership with the constructor which is basically: You provide them professional services (You develop a version of your simulator for them) and they let you develop a public version with their plane giving you data.
In military flight simulators the most known company is Eagle dynamics from russia, they develop hardcore study sims. for example their DCS A-10C was developped because they developped the military version of their simulators that is used in USAF from recrutee training.
In car racing i've understood that kunos simulazioni survived by the exact same means and that assetto corsa will have lot's of licence cars because of their links with the professional industry.
Each time the partnership was done because of the physics engine. Professionals don't care about data, they have hundreds and hundreds of pages filled with coefficients measures in testing, what they want is a mathematically solid engine that because it is aimed a public is cheap...so they can buy it without having to invest millions asking a specialized company to do so.
IMHO as a simmer i don't really care if one kart is like the real counterpart. What i do care is that physics are respected, that is if i change to torsional stiffness somewhere it produces the same results. Now that a kart goes 100km/h in a sim while doing 110 in real is not the first priority for me.
About the understeer problem: I start to see a bit clearer now in kart dynamics (after reading many technical papers) and i tweak the set up and really my karts in KRP are not understeering that much and if the leaderboard is up to date, i'm far from being slow on the KRP tracks. However it is true that my approach is to recognize what is the problem (what the kart is doing) and apply the science i learned on the set up.
Now to resolve the problem it is needed to get into the detail of your physic engine to try to look out where is the problem; If you need my help i can only offer a "not too newbie" opinion because of my experience with physics engines and i'm not too afraid of maths and physics neither; I may not be able to pinpoint what the problem is but maybe i can give some ideas;
And then better real life drivers than me can help giving their feedback; But all of this require strict (and sometime boring) tests procedures! We're doing it flight simulators, it is not just a matter of taking the virtual kart out for some hotlap, we would need to test the same maneuver over and over, peharps a skid pad would be needed etc...
That is if you need my help! i don't even know your background and how KRP is done, except that i think it is a great thing to do a kart simulator and i feel KRP has strong potential.
So keep up the good work!
Sounds good :D
Quote from: Uncia Ogami on January 20, 2013, 07:53:08 PM
Professionals don't care about data, they have hundreds and hundreds of pages filled with coefficients measures in testing
The karting world is not so advanced. As wrote before, development mostly revolves around trial and error: thousands and thousands of laps on test tracks. For example most kart tyre manufacturers don't have data from test rigs.
Yeah i actually read that yesterday while browsing serveral research paper. This is very surprising..But maybe this is your chanceto be part of a new dawn in karting, try a set up a numerical approach to karting. You wouldn't be the only interested, for example university of turino and torvergata group did several numerical studies on both aero and chassis for karts.
They are now doing some FSAE project but i'm in touch with torvergata because they are very interested in aerodynamics downforce prospects for karts and research in general in those field.
...a ready made simulator could be a good tool for them to test their model! :)
Karting is fantastic, but in my opinion too much stuck in the past.
Quote from: PiBoSo on January 15, 2013, 06:28:17 PM
Quote from: Uncia Ogami on January 15, 2013, 06:20:08 PM
Hello Piboso,
I' joined KRP just some weeks ago so i don't know the other builds; I've indeed seen some strange behaviors compared to real life and my initial feelings with the base setups were that understeer (especially on long bends) was too much (you really had to fight a lot). With set up changes it is much better now.
I'm not enough qualified to say where you have it right where you have it wrong however coming from other simulators fraternity (mainly military air planes simulators) and having been involved in alpha & beta testing with some teams i feel i have one good suggestion for you.
do NOT rely on observations to TWEAK your physics engine!! This is the best way to f^*ù up your simulator!! Why?
1/ People will tell you "this kart should oversteer there!" but why their kart oversteer there?? there could be a lot of reasons!
2/ People will sometime feel something that in reality has contrary manifestations for example "i oversteer there!" but in reality you can a fraction of second understeer; Sometime the driver has it completely wrong.
3/ People will invevitably say you that "a kart should do this in those conditions" and there they start to make a law of their own experience whithout knowing what going on.
4/You'll run the risk of tweaking some parameters that will have influence on the others and that will spoil the other points.
All of those points are called "the Hollywood effect" in military flight simulators I.E: people have a wrong idea of how a plane should behave in this or this situation.
My suggestion is that you should improve you mathematical model or tweak it in the basic parameters. If your physic model is good from a mathematical and source data point of view then when someone says that your physics are wrong, you can discuss with the person to see if he has a sound scientific approach or not and you can better see what it going on.
My post isn't there to say that the complains are not valid, and i'm sure you already know all of this but following the posts i'm under the impression that many people want some "sensations" back and when you're under pressure to change your physics you run at risk to make fast tweaks that will please people because their driving technic will work but where everything is messed up in other department. Then another will say "i drive like that in real life! I'm a champion and it doesn't work in KRP!!!"..
Bai bai
Thank you for your message. This is indeed a big risk and unfortunately it probably already happened between Beta6 and 7.
It would be useful to know what setup changes you made.
:) Looking forward to beta 8